Fri
Jul 3 2009
03:01 pm
By: BrantWW
|
Eco warriors and politics
- Senate education chair: Voucher agreement needed by week’s end for passage (TN Lookout)
- John Cole’s Tennessee: Reading, writing, ‘rithmetic and reloading (TN Lookout)
- Budget clears House, Senate panels, but voucher bill on hold (TN Lookout)
- Republican lawmakers make vocal push against Chattanooga VW plant union effort (TN Lookout)
- Duck River among the ‘most endangered’ in the nation (TN Lookout)
- Editor’s notebook: Arming as many Tennesseans as possible while mistreating mothers. (TN Lookout)
- U.S. Rep. Massie joins move to oust Speaker Johnson, who vows: ‘I am not resigning’ (TN Lookout)
- (Son of) Stockard on the Stump: Public records battle goes down to wire in Legislature (TN Lookout)
Science and stuff
- A puzzling mix of artifacts raises questions about Homo sapiens’ travels to China (Science News Daily)
- Tiny treadmills show how fruit flies walk (Science News Daily)
- Hibernating bumblebee queens have a superpower: Surviving for days underwater (Science News Daily)
- What can period blood reveal about a person’s health? (Science News Daily)
- In ‘Get the Picture,’ science helps explore the meaning of art (Science News Daily)
- This robot can tell when you’re about to smile — and smile back (Science News Daily)
- This newfound longhorn beetle species is unusually fluffy (Science News Daily)
- 50 years ago, scientists wondered how birds find their way home (Science News Daily)
- Scientists find a naturally occurring molecule that forms a fractal (Science News Daily)
- In a first, these crab spiders appear to collaborate, creating camouflage (Science News Daily)
Discussing
- The Constitution Won, Trump Lost in Colorado...Now What? (1 reply)
- Our Very Own George Santos, TN GOP Congressman Ogles is Pretty Much Insane (1 reply)
- Destroying Jim Jordan, All Without Mentioning Jordan's Support For Sexual Abusing Athletes (1 reply)
- Want to See Who Owns Your State Senators and Reps? (1 reply)
- 9-11 Strangest Uninvestigated Fact (2 replies)
- It's Gettin' Real, Now...Gloria Johnson Made Wonkette! (1 reply)
- Does Rep Fritts Want School Shooters to Have Access to AR 15s? (2 replies)
- How many Trees Died Trying Save Us From Global Warming? (1 reply)
- Feel Good Friday,,,From our "If Only" Dept. (1 reply)
- Tennessee Education Worsens Under Bill Lee and GOP (1 reply)
- The Most Important Thing You Will Read Today! (1 reply)
- Friday Toons (1 reply)
Lost Medicaid Funding
To date, the failure to expand Medicaid / TennCare has cost the State of Tennessee ? in lost federal funding.
Sponsors
Brother Websites
Other "Views":
Local Interest:
Folks that Help:
Progressiveness:
Local News Media:
Local Government:
Candidates:
Local Interest:
Folks that Help:
Progressiveness:
- All Hat No Cattle
- American Progress
- Campaign for America's Future
- Daily KOS
- digby
- Paul Krugman
- Talking Points Memo
- Whitehouse.gov
Local News Media:
Local Government:
- City of Harriman
- City of Harriman Code
- City of Kingston
- City of Kingston Code
- City of Oliver Springs
- City of Oliver Springs Code
- City of Rockwood
- City of Rockwood Code
- Congressman Charles 'Chuck' J. Fleischmann
- Rep. Kent Calfee
- Rep. Ron Travis
- Roane County
- Roane Schools
- St. Sen. Ken Yager
Candidates:
Some may say it comes with
Some may say it comes with the territory of politics. But we all have to admit Sarah and her family were hammered pretty hard.
Randy Ellis
randyellis@gmail.com
Yes, Randy, like no other.
Yes, Randy, like no other. And what I don't get is IF she is as bad as the Liberal's make her out to be, why, oh, why tear her down? Wouldn't you want her running at the head of the Republican ticket? But, just maybe?????
Liberals didn't tear Palin down.
You guys need some new material. All anyone has done to Palin is point out the obvious.
As a Democrat by default, I really hope she stays active in Republican politics. Before today she was ranked right behind Bob Corker in R presidential hopefuls. Please let her rise to the top...Please, please, please!
Now get off national politics, conservative blather, and return to local issues. If you go national it has to havelocal implcations. ( ...and point it out if I do it. I'll fix it)
Just so I understand this we
Just so I understand this we are not allowed to talk about national politics, that affect us all, on here unless it has some sort of local connection? So now that the Dems are in complete control (and doing a pretty lousy job I might add) we aren't allowed to talk about national political issues. Seems a little strange since I don't remember any such rule when W was in the White House or during the elections last year. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. ;-)
As for Palin, surely even the most devoted Democrat can't say with a straight face that she wasn't made a target by the MSM and treated much differently than Obama/Biden. If the MSM had looked nearly as closely at Obama as they did Palin we would have a different president. And the MSM wouldn't have had to dig far at all to find all kinds of problems with "the one" (or maybe if they just hadn't ignored the ones that were found by "accident"). They certainly wouldn't have had to stoop to the dirty journalism they used on Palin. Thankfully they (the MSM) have started to wake up and are asking the tough questions they refused to ask during the election. Maybe without Palin to kick around as much the MSM will turn their attention to Obama and the mess he is making of this country. Once they get done letting us know that Michael Jackson is dead of course.
Yep...Posts like that one right there RV
Palin got everything she deserved and less. She is a liar and most likely will have criminal charges brought against her for corruption. The Republican party never deserved to be tainted with her presence. The dirty journalism you speak of was simply the truth told.
Now let's move on, except that you might want to read this.
Liberals didn't tear Palin
Liberals didn't tear Palin down? Name me one candidate, of either party, that the media and opposing party went after with such hate...yes, hate. Not only toward her, but her daughters and a son born with a handicap. I'll tell you one thing, Sarah Palin has more balls than most men have. All I can say is, "You go, Girl." You've got my vote next time if you run...it's only been 5 + months of "the One" and I'm scared the direction our country is going.
Well I read it. More of the
Well I read it. More of the same ole treatment of Palin. The problem with the MSM's treatment of Palin was that it wasn't the same level of vetting they did for Obama. What had he accomplished prior to being elected to President? What about all of the radical people he surrounded himself with and their influence on him? All of that and much more would have seemed to be just as fair to be grilling Obama about in between playing gotcha journalism with Palin about foreign policy etc.
What criminal charges are coming for corruption? All of the ethics charges against her have gone nowhere. That's the very kind of unsubstantiated charge you would condemn others on here for making about one of "your" guys.
Now I will move on since I don't have much of a choice for the next 3.5 years.
In doing research tonight I
Sorry, wrong topic...moved to correct area.
Who were all the people that
Who were all the people that descended on Alaska after she was announced as the veep digging thru every public record on her and trying to dig up anything personal they could? Who filed all the ethics complaints that have been dismissed? I am sure the GOP didn't hire them?
Randy Ellis
randyellis@gmail.com
Like most every person running
for public office, she often forgets to have seven gatekeepers for her mouth, so very strange statements pop out. She is another one of those very ordinary people pretending to speak on behalf of God. The last bastion of a political scoundrel is to wrap oneself in the flag and claim one's speech is divinely inspired.
Sarah Palin is hardly a poor innocent victim, but rather a shrewd, ambitious, self-serving political climber. And I might add, obviously way too unsophisticated to run a country as complex and divided as ours. On the other hand, she would make a great "made for TV preacher"
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
Just wait and see................
.............what President Obama does with this country (quickly already started)and there will not be much doubt that Gov. Palin is not as wicked as you libs let on. Just look at this country! In fact he has expedited the downfall much quicker than even I thought he could.
The time for waiting is over
I look forward to what Obama will do with hope that he can straighten out the mess that was laid in his lap by the former administration. The fact that he got started quickly is good news to me. In my opinion it is hard to expedite a downfall when you are at rock bottom. There is no way to go but up. Palin expedited her downfall before she got elected. She did that by just speaking in public.
The only "hope" I have for
The only "hope" I have for Obama is that the American people wake up! It was refreshing to see Chip and Helen take Gibbs to the task of this hand selected questions that Obama seems to prefer. Shucks, I could even have an answer for something I knew was going to be asked in the next 24 hrs. If he's so great let's put him in front of a crowd that isn't hand picked for hard questions, and see how everyone "grades" him based on those answers. Oh, and no teleprompter, please. Finally, will the past administration's mess ever become Obama's mess? Doubtful. The Average Federal Deficit as a Percentage of the GDP (by Administration) estimates Obama's federal deficit at 7.3%, the highest of the last 9 President's. And it's going to get larger with each bill, stimulus, healthcare, etc. they attempt to ram through Congress. This economy is Obama's now.
If he's so great
We have already done that. The "crowd" was the American people. The format was called the Presidential election. Seems like he got a pretty good grade to me. And he still is getting a pretty good grade from the polls I see.
Ah yes, doesn't that make you long for the old days before Medicare or Medicaid when the sick just got sicker, and the old folks stayed in the Poorhouse where they belonged. Yes that was the good old days when taxes were low and misery for the poor was high.
Oh, I agree something needs
Oh, I agree something needs to be done with healthcare. But for anyone to think we can afford to do along the lines of what is being talked is foolish. Heck, look what happened to TN with TennCare. I don't want to rely on the government for my healthcare. Those decisions on what procedures can be done for me should be mine and mine alone.
I read where the same 9 people in Texas visited the ER 2,674 times in a six year span. This at the expense of Texas to the tune of over $3 million. And what about the illegals that visit the ER's...we're paying for their healthcare.
Many things can be changed to fight the costs but I want medical decisions that pretain to me be made by me, not the government.
Many things can be changed
Everyone wants that but... if you don't have insurance or the ability to pay, all the decisions you make will be for naught. If you have a medical problem, and it is not deemed to be an emergency (deemed by people other than you), you may be turned away and sent home. If you are in a lot of pain, that does not constitute an emergency, so you could possibly do a lot of suffering as a result. If it is deemed an emergency, still the outcome is not always good without insurance.
Example: A friend of mine was just telling me about her brother going to the hospital ER with a medical problem that was a life threatening emergency. He had no insurance or ability to pay the bill but he was treated. He ended up with a colostomy and had to go home with a bag attached to him. Now he cannot get the procedure he needs to eliminate the need for the colostomy because it is not considered a life threatening emergency although it is readily available to anyone with insurance. What is someone like him to do? He can't get a job that will provide him with insurance because of his medical condition and there is no government plan that he qualifies for him until he has lost everything he has worked for all his life. That does not seem fair to me.
If we had a health care system, that I believe is what Obama envisions, to cover people like him, he would not have to go broke to get the care he needs and would not have to give up his dignity. That is why I feel we need heath care for everyone in this county now. In the beginning it may not be perfect but when it comes to your health, something is better than nothing. Let's at least give it a chance to work before we kill it.
I wish everyone could make their own health care decisions but as you can see in the example above, that is not always the case. Maybe you can but I'm sure if my friends brother could simply make the decision to get the procedure done that he needs he certainly would.
I too had a similar situation
in that I had a hernia, but no insurance. Working about the farm, I constantly had to push my colon back through the tear in my abdominal muscle. However, since nothing had ruptured, it wasn't considered an emergency, and I was refused treatment, even when my family doctor advocated for corrective surgery on my behalf.
Fortunately, after contacting Congressman Davis, I was quickly admitted to the Nashville VA and operated on a short time later. Two years later, I am completely healed, and able to do all the heavy physical labor a family farm demands. Had I not been a veteran, and not able to afford health insurance on what many would consider a meager income, where could I have turned for this simple, but life saving surgery?
It is long past time to provide every citizen access to health care. It is the mark of a compassionate and civilized society.
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
why didn't they buy insurance?
It is beyond comphrension that able bodied people who are or were able to work don't (didn't) buy insurance.
I feel no responsibilty to provide health care for people that through their own life style choices refuse to provide for their own healthcare. The infirm, mentally ill, etc are a different matter.
But people who are (were) healthy and dont (didn't) buy insurance and then want taxpayers to provide for them when they get sick are irresponsible.
If one can afford computers, internet, etc. there is some policy available (again I am speaking of healthy people). A HSP with high deductble is not unfordable to most - even if it means taking a second job. If one won't do that why should I have to pay?
I have a close friend who could be on disability but isn't. When he had work with no insurance he worked nights at (gasp!) Walmart so he could buy insurance for himself and family.
There are simply too many people wanting to climb on my back and other taxpayers backs. The system will crash if people don't stop looking for handouts. One taxpayer struggling to provide for his/her own family can't keep being FORCED to pay others who can but won't do the same for themselves.
I agree, Bryant. And it's
I agree, Bryant. And it's those same people that if they get this will then want other "benefits" at the expense of others. How many illegal immigrants are figured in the total people who do not have healthcare? Why should any of us have to pay for their healthcare? And how many people that can afford insurance but simply choose not to are in the total number? I pay for my insurance and in twenty years time, do want to guess how many times I've had to use it? Twice. I look at all the money I spent out and didn't get any benefit of it. I've thought about dropping my coverage and just take a chance nothing happens. But I won't do that. I don't expect anyone to give or provide me something that I'm fully capable of providing for myself. And I'm currently unemployed and basically living month to month. But my insurance is paid on it's due date.
AMEN TO BOTH OF YOU for your
AMEN TO BOTH OF YOU for your comments!
We, the working, are supposed to feel guilty for having no compassion for those who REFUSE to pay for insurance coverage?
We are supposed to be willing to pay higher premiums so others, who choose to use their money to buy new cars, trucks, tractors, vacations, eat out, buy fast food, etc. can have health care provided to them without paying insurance premiums?
And, before anyone goes ballistic, I'm talking about those who choose not to have insurance because they won't pay the premiums, but still expect "free" health care. It's not free when someone else(taxpayer/premium payer) has to pay for it!
Come on the system is
Come on the system is broken.
No Is Not the System
There is nothing about our "system" that causes some people to selishly and greedily expect - no demand others to provide what they can but won't provide for themselves.
Indeed these people are breaking - in a profoundly literal sense, the system and the plans being rushed through Congress will crush all taxpaying, working citizens beneath relentlessly higher taxes and economy crippling debt.
There are not enough rich and middle class taxpayers alive today to make life fair or to fund Quoxetic eutophian schemes. All that will pass is the demoralization of the ingenious, the inventive, the capitalists, the workers and investors who make our system possible.
If you want to see the gap between rich and poor grow watch will happen if the current quest in Washington suceeds.
The rich will survive and thrive. The little guys will sink into dispondence and depedency.
As Ronald Reagan would say,
"there you go again."
For your information, I don't own a motor vehicle, don't own a tractor, don't go on vacation (livestock requires I work 365 days a year), do not eat out, definitely would not buy fast (junk) food, hardly go to town except for the post office, bank, and hardware store. I work hard, pay property and sales taxes, and live well below the official poverty level. I already work 10-12 hours a day depending on the season. I grow good wholesome food for people who can't grow their own food, improve the fertility of the land, provide habitat for wildlife, grow trees for oxygen breathing mammals (like you), protect the watershed, and am basically a good neighbor and land steward in my neighborhood.
Now you are telling me that because I won't purchase insurance I can't possibly afford, that I don't deserve health care. Can you blame me for "going ballistic" when I have to listen to ignorant claptrap like that?
How about we cancel building one of those multi-million dollar warplanes and use the money to provide needed health care for hard working people like me? Or maybe the Big Oil companies could actually pay some taxes on their billions of dollars profit? Better yet, the bailout money that went to pay executive bonuses of the folks who tanked the economy would do very nicely thank you.
In the meantime, since you claim to be a christian, you might try reading the parable of the good samaritan. It definitely is not you.
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
There you go again...
There you go again... ASSuming I was talking about you! And, then insulting and calling me names!
I was responding to the comments from Brant and the one under him. And then you jumped in... Boy, you sure are paranoid... Maybe you should get out more!!!
But since you jumped in to blast me, let me say... Paying for insurance might mean you may have to go to WORK outside your home/property FOR AN INCOME like others have had to do, so they can pay for essentials, like insurance that you want handed to you while you pursue your chosen lifestyle!!!
And as far as you challenging my Christianity...I would put my acts of kindness (samaritian) up against yours any day!
Well it sure seemed like
your blanket statement included me, in spite of your denials to the contrary.
Being a person who will not purchase health insurance, (due to cost) does that make me one who "refuses?"
I hope you didn't type that with your mouth full. After all, all of your food is grown by farmers, so our work "inside our property" is just as valid as any other type of work. And are you not pursuing your own chosen lifestyle?
Since you are not a farmer, let me share some facts. Government agricultural policy involves a parity mandate that limits the value of our products to 70% of their true value. The other 30% is made up with a government subsidy. Small farmers like my wife and I, don't qualify for that 30% subsidy, so unless we sell direct to the consumer, the price is set to prevent us from making a profit. That is why so many family farmers were driven out of business over the last 40 years. When you get rid of us, then all of your food will necessarily come from chemical intensive industrial farms, which will certainly increase your own personal health care costs.
Jesus was a proponent of free health care. Never have I read of Jesus asking a sick person if they were gainfully employed, or if they could pay for treatment. He was even known to perform "free surgery" on his enemies, i.e. the Roman soldier whose ear was cut off by Peter.
I can't do that as 1.) I am not keeping track, and 2.) if I am looking for recognition for my good works, then perhaps they are not truly motivated by compassion.
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
You just keep spouting out
You just keep spouting out your opinions of people without fact. Actually I am a part-time farmer. I do grow some of what I eat. But I also have two other jobs that I must work at in order to pay the bills... insurance included.
You attacked me on whether I was a Christian and not being a good samaritian. I was trying to correct your lies. Sounds like you are a very judgemental person to me, and you quote Christ enough to know what he said about that!
Chill out! Life is too short to be so angry all the time!
Thank you for clarifying
a couple of facts for me.
Please be aware that I did not attack you on whether you were a Christian. It doesn't particularly matter to me whether you are or are not, except when you based some of your "this is the way it is" comments on your religious belief. I thought I heard a lot of old testament fire and brimstone, and little of the new testament and a God of love and compassion in your statements. If I was wrong, then I apologize.
I did question your particular interpretation of compassion and charitable works based upon some emphatic statements about those that don't have your same work ethic, myself included. Have you not insinuated that what is good for you, leaving your property to work two jobs, ought to be my choice also if I want health care?
I read every posting twice and even thrice if I am inclined to respond. That way I hope I hear what is actually being said, not necessarily what I thought I heard.
And again, please don't confuse a carefully crafted, albeit sometimes sharp retort from a "flaming liberal" mind as being an indication of perpetual anger. It is your ideas, not you (I don't even know you) that are in my debating sights. You can believe it or not, but I am mostly chilled out and enjoying my chosen life.
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
Maybe you should "read" the
Maybe you should "read" the comments instead of trying to "hear" what is being written. Maybe that's why you seem to have such a hostile attitude. You want to read too much into what you perceive is "between the lines" instead of what is written on them!
You first brought up the Christian reference. I don't think I made any statements as to ... my "forcing my ethics" on anyone.
That's something you, again, are "hearing" but not reading from my statements.
I simply stated how I go about making enough money to pay my bills, insurance included.If that rubs you wrong, too bad.
Sometimes it's those that
Sometimes it's those that may not necessarily believe in Jesus that have a clearer understanding of him and his grace. It seems that FL has a pretty clear view of the compassion of Jesus' grace, maybe even better than those in the world that calls themselves Christians. Could it be that those so called Christians do not understand who he was/is, what he did, and why or how he did it. Sometimes an open liberal mind can see what a closed mind cannot. Even though Jesus was above politics, but strangely killed partly because of others political power and insecurity. In today's times the typical conservative mind set would have likely called him crazy too and dismissed any spiritual wonders as untruths at best.
It's understood that the posters were not referring to their Christianity, but since FL shared some insight, I found this fitting.
I quess Jesus was a liberal in one sense.
However, in others He was not.
The modern liberal label fits Jesus in the sense that He told us what we had to do to enjoy salvation. However, there the Liberal analogy falls short.
After Jesus told us what to do, He left it up to us to do it - to take care of business. As the Son of God Jesus had the power and could have compelled us to act in our own best interest to Love the Father, but unlike modern liberals who desire to force others to bend to their will Jesus did not.
If Jesus were a liberal He would not have left us to our own devices – a liberal Jesus would have protected us from ourselves. Failure would have been taken off the table and everyone would get the same results out of life no matter what they did or did not do.
However, Jesus did not do that. After He showed us the way and gave us proof of His Divinity Jesus offered no safety net, no alternative course of action, no leniency, and the path He laid down is long and a narrow. We either take personal responsibility or suffer the consequences.
Jesus laid it out in certain terms – if we fail to personally take care of business we are left behind. What's liberal about this? Liberals might think the path Jesus showed us is unfair because it does not guarantee equal outcomes for people who do not do the work - repent and accept Christ.
This is what He said: (other suggested reading Mark 1:15, Romans 10:10-13, John 3:7, Acts 17:30, Matthew 10:32, John 12:32-33)
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.
King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
American King James Version
Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
American Standard Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to him, I am the true and living way: no one comes to the Father but by me.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
Darby Bible Translation
Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.
English Revised Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.
Weymouth New Testament
"I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Young's Literal Translation
Jesus saith to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;
"After Jesus told us what to
"After Jesus told us what to do, He left it up to us to do it - to take care of business. As the Son of God Jesus had the power and could have compelled us to act in our own best interest to Love the Father, but unlike modern liberals who desire to force others to bend to their will Jesus did not.
If Jesus were a liberal He would not have left us to our own devices – a liberal Jesus would have protected us from ourselves."
I disagree that it's only the liberals that would have polices to bend anyone to their will. On moral issues it has been the so called conservatives that have done that. Jesus can not be put into a box or party or leaning. The spiritual things you talk about are above this world and politics.
In regards to leaving us to our own devices, that is what liberals and libertarians support, not the GOP.
"Liberals might think the path Jesus showed us is unfair because it does not guarantee equal outcomes for people who do not do the work - repent and accept Christ. "
It may be a doctrinal difference, but the outcomes are the same for those that accept Christ being eternal life.
Yes equal to believers, but what of those that don't
Accept Christ - their outcome is very much not the same - and all good liberals now everyone must be treated the same no matter what they do or do not do. That was my point that Christ is not a liberal in the modern sense because unless you take personal action and responsibilty you will not get to the Father. And the concerpt of personal action and repsonsibility is very much foreign to today's liberals.
It is liberals that want to control everyone and everything - look to Obama he is setting the example for all liberals - take it over by the government and then control it to the benefit of your party members.
As God was above earthly
As God was above earthly politics, he provided that delegated power to the governments. Over time governments have been both good and bad as they will continue to be. Jesus said to give to Creaser what is Creaser's and what is God's to God. Taxes to support the government and the people date back even to Jesus' day. Much of your argument goes back to that statement. Jesus stayed out of those petty fights as he was above that. He was even above that instant in time, as their political issues seemed big to them on that day, but were just a speck of dust to us now. On moral issues, Liberals often provide options which people can choose from, thereby offering individual people the choice to use their own morals and beliefs, thus being judged for their own actions.
All choices
See below
All choices
Posted twice see below.
All choices
First my Christain charity goes to those who have need. Stealing my income in the form of taxes is not charity.
Second the parable of the good Samaritian is about someone who at that moment could not help themselves. Not about help those who won't help themselves
Third. You can buy insurance. You choose not to. Instead you direct your effort elsewhere.
If one can work 10 to 12 hours per day why not work 14? ( I wish my wife and I could get by working only 10 to 12 hours a day)
It sounds like every aspect of the life you discribe is a choice. Why should I or anyone else pay for the choices you make.My wife and I pay $1400 per month in health insurance for the two of us. My dedctible is $5000. I have no presciption coverage, no dental or No eye glass coverage and the two medicines I take cost $300 per month on top of the insurance. So I don't pay much attention those that can but won't pay there own way. In most years our income for our family of four is also below the poverty level. The kids qualified for reduced or some years free lunches but I paid the full price. Finally no one challenged your contributions to society, just your claim that you can't afford insurance. If your life style was not a decision or if you were unable to work then by all means I would not protest your need for help. Who said you don't deserve Heath care? I'm just saying you do not deserve to have others pay for it for you. Farmer Leaf I admire you and what you do but that does not mandate that the sweat of my brow should be taken from me by force so that you may have Heath care. Pay for your Heath care and then complain.
Last you have no idea how much I may or may not give to help others and you ought not presume such knowledge.
You are already paying
enough to support 6 people under a better system. Also your "chosen lifestyle" seems so stressful, the leading cause of dis-ease, that working harder is just going to make you sicker. How you could defend that system, which is obviously ripping you off, is beyond my comprehension.
It sounds like you have a narrow definition of fair exchange. You and I need a healthy environment in order to maintain a healthy life. Who is going to offset the polluter and environmental vandals? Nobody under our profit based system is going to pay for a person exercising good land and water stewardship? It takes a lot of time to do it right, and I don't get paid for that work. I was taught to leave the Earth in better ecological shape than I found it. Unfortunately, this is not the current paradigm which is to loot and plunder the Earth in the pursuit of profit. Screw the children, we want it now is the behavior I see being played out daily.
People like me are working constantly to lower health care costs by reducing health care needs. I am just asking for fair exchange. By no stretch of your imagination could I be considered a "freeloader."
Living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
Never said u r a freeloader
I simply said that it is by choice that you endeavor (as do I) in a vocation that does not include health care. What you contend is that because you farm others should pay for your health care through direct subsidy based on your good works but earlier you said one should not do good in expectation of reward.
Perhaps you are right that I am already paying for six other people. Then I am doing my fair share and no one should be grudge the fact that I don't want pay for number seven, eight, or nine.
Six is enough.
When government takes over HC if it gets cheaper it will because there is less of it.
Farmer Leaf
I been thinking more about your post and about the years of dedication you have given to our ecology and our waterways. You certainly have not done these things for monetariy gain - and perhaps you like me are frightened by the prospect of growing older, weaker, possibly becoming infirm to the point we cannot work long hours, in your case living and teaching Earth friendly sustainable agricultural practices.
Undoubtedly, you have directly affected many people in a positive way and many more indirectly. Perhaps we do owe you something for those years of unpaid service.
In respect for this I would like to challenge 100 people to pledge and send to you at least $10 per month for you to use to buy insurance or bank and then use to pay for health care costs.
I am serious. One hundred people is a small number and $10 dollars per month is a small amount to contribute to someone who has spent so long working on behalf of others (even when we were not aware of the effort).
Brant
PS Randy M helped me see the light here.
On the cost of the military
Here is a plan disband the military.
And let another county take over health care and everything else.
Those who are against universal health care.....
don't seem to realize that that they are already paying for the care of those who can't afford it. Why do you suppose an ER visit is so expensive? Why does an aspirin cost $10. in a hospital setting? The cost of unpaid care is spread over all services....second, the insurance companies have mandated rates for most procedures, so the medical community grabs extra $$$ wherever they can. Insurers now pick and choose who the will cover, and that practice is beginning to infiltrate group plans through denied procedures and rejected claims....so those who scream so loudly about the "freeloaders" who don't deserve coverage, may be in for a rude awakening when they become seriously ill.
How anyone can contend that the system is not broken defies logic. There are lots of options and possibilities to improve the system that could involve a combination of public and private resources but as long as we remain so staunchly polarized on the right or left it will not happen without until one side becomes powerful enough to force the issue.
There will never be univeral health care.
There will be government rationed health care. What you and others are calling "universal" health care is a pipe dream. Oh, everyone might be on the program but not everyone would be making monetary contributions to the program and therein lays the problem.
What you call "universal" health care is really a fanciful attempt to "equalize" health care. The planners acknowledge that as now the few will be paying for the many - but unlike our system today health care will be rationed in order to make sure its distribution is equalized. While people with no, little, or poor health care will see some improvement, the people footing the bills will see a drastic reduction in both the availability and quality of their health care.
The plan is to "level" the playing field by reducing the health care of those already paying down to level that the same money pays for everyone (except of course they are trying to exempt certain favored groups like unions – which forebodes an ill wind for those who are non-party members).
What you call "universal" health care is a pipe dream. Oh, everyone might be on the program but not everyone would be making monetary contributions to the program. Tell me how we can add more people to the "plan" with the same finite monetary resources without cutting costs? Tennessee already went this route and it didn't work.
How do we cut costs? Not by creating vast new government beaucracy, boards, and commissions.
Gov Bredesen found out that with TENN CARE the only way to reduce costs was to reduce benefits and enrollment.
Two other ways are to A) TAKE OUT THE PROFIT i.e., tell the providers how much they can charge and how much they can make for the care they provide and B) SET UP BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS whose job is to create benefit schedules and actuarial tables for the sole purpose of reducing cost through rationing.
There are no other ways.
Those pushing for reform openly acknowledge the first option and they are also not so openly talking about new boards and commissions that will be telling Doctors how much they can make and companies what profit they can make.
How long will it be before medical schools lower their standards because the best and brightest no longer see a future in medicine? How long will it be before research and development stops? Why would anyone invest (buy stocks and bonds or make loans) and risk their money in companies that are not allowed to make profits?
How long will it be before the government MUST take over the medical schools, the hospitals and medical companies - and where does the government get the money to do all of this - from the ever-decreasing number of taxpayers. Who will make Band-Aids for no profit? Why the government that is expert at doing everything at a loss because the government has no incentive to save or be productive!
Moreover, if you think for a second that advancements in medicine will continue at the rate they have in the past, you are mistaken. Nothing comes from the government at a cost that is affordable....
Bottom line the only way to provide universal health care is to reduce the quality and availability of care at the top in order to give it to the bottom.
Right now, I buy health insurance - sure, my premiums are outrageous but now I am in a “pool” with other people who are also paying for their insurance. How much will the cost of my monthly bill go up when I am lumped in with the millions who are not paying?
Right now if my Doctor orders a test or a procedure, I might have to wait a month if it is elective or if it is not a day or week. Will this still be the case when the government runs the system?
Randy, what you are hoping for is the same or better health care for cheaper price. But I see nothing in the plan being rushed through Congress on an emergency basis that indicates you will get what you want (even if are one who pays no tax you may cheaper but you won’t get as good).
Randy like me you are scared to death of the future... how can we afford our health care then? I don't know but I do know that we cannot afford to pay for ourselves and others who are not paying - sharing costs with an insurance pool of paying people is a lot different than paying for those that don't contribute a dime (already over 50% of American pay NO taxes and that doesn't count the millions of non-citizens).
I predict that people like you and me will lose much more than we gain if this plan passes and the end result will be the steady decline of everyone’s (except the truly rich) health care.
What you and others seem all too willing to do is forfeit your freedom for the illusion of security – do you really want to turn yet another aspect of your life over to the government and if you do what will be the point of working to get ahead? Why not just lay back and enjoy the free ride?
You are quick to point out that it won't work
But you offer no solutions and use the standard scare tactic of rationed care and some imagined sacrifice of freedom. I'll be the first to agree that the perfect system has not been created, but from what I have read about health care in Canada and England there are not people dropping dead because critical procedures are not being performed, but there may be long waits for some elective procedures.
In this country it is estimated that about 20,000 people die each year because they cannot afford treatment and about 46 MILLION Americans have no health insurance whatsoever. The U.S. also spends twice as much on medical care as any civilized country on the planet, but not on a per person basis. Now tell me that there's nothing wrong with the system.
Your perception that medical schools will lower their standards is silly. If you think that the Medical Profession is populated by only the best and brightest, you have had very little exposure to it. Is it so terrible that doctors in those countries with universal health care earn less? Explain to me how medical advancements will slow. There is no provision anywhere that says the government will take over medical research. Have you taken notice of the incredible profits that medical products manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies are making, even in this economy. By the way, some of the finest medical schools in the country are found in public colleges.
What I am hoping for is health care for those who need it. Nor am I an advocate of creating a national health care plan on a rush basis. Hell.... In another year and a half I'll be 65 and eligible for Medicare. With all of its flaws, it will be far better than the current policy thru my small business.
Other than
Other than calling me ignorant and saying my expression is scare tactics you did not adress the point I raise about who will pay for your Heath care
You didn't adress my concern that in order to give universal care rationing will result
You did not adress what happens when people can't earn a profit.
BTW England is starting to allow people to buy private medical care. Wonder why?
Ignorant and misinformed are not the same.....
Rationing of elective procedures is far better than providing zero health care for those who need critical care. That is the trade off we now make.
We are all paying for health care now. The uninsured who pay for their own health care pay as much as 100% more than insurers pay. Fact is, that under a national health care plan, your taxes will probably increase, some of which will be offset by a reduction or elimination of actual insurance premiums that corporations and individuals pay.
Pfizer...the world's largest drug company made about $114 million profit on Viagra alone last year and roughly doubled their overall profit last year...they are a ways away from not being able to earn a profit.
BTW
Being in favor of Heath care for those who need it is a given. But as everyone neefs HC, The question is who will pay for it.
I buy insurance as a result I live in a very old, very small house in a bad neighborhod. Should I demand you and others pay my Heath care costs so the money I currently spend on health care could go toward a mortgage for lake front luxury house? That would be the fair thing right?
I think what a lot of people are saying is we don't want to sarifice our life style to pay for our own health care
To be honest if I thought the gov could be trusted to run health care and it would be as available as it is now I would be the first to sign up. I would love a newer, bigger house.
But the fact is I won't be retiring so I will still be a taxpayer and that lake house would still be out of reach because of the higher taxes I'll be paying when all the folks not paying climb on my back.
If you don't work for an
If you don't work for an employer that offers group coverage the cost of insurance can be out of reach for workers on minimum wage.
I found a website where I could get an instant quote on Athena health care. The monthly premium was $303 for 1 person. A family would be more. That rate does not take into consideration for any pre-existing medical problems. Below is what I found. Take note of the deductible before any payment is made. To me this type of insurance is out of reach for a lot of hard working people. Most would have to make the choice of buying insurance or feeding their family. I hope you guys who don't want to help others never get to the point where you don't have insurance coverage but if you do you may have a different outlook about thinking everyone should pay their own way.
Details at a Glance:
* Plan Type - PPO
* Office Visit for Primary Doctor - $40 Copay
* Office Visit for Specialist - $50 Copay
* Coinsurance - 20% after deductible
* Annual Deductible - Individual:$5,000
* Separate Prescription Drugs Deductible - $500 Individual applies to Brand, Non-Formulary
* Prescription Drugs - Generic: $15 Copay, Brand: $25 Copay, Non-Formulary: $40 Copay
* Annual Out-of-Pocket Limit - Individual:$7,500 Includes deductible
* Lifetime Maximum - $5 Million per person
You seem to forget that
You seem to forget that there are subsidized programs such as Tenn Care, Families First, Kids First,etc. that can offer insurance for low income/minimum wage workers and families.
Some people qualify without paying any kind of premium. Others pay a much smaller premium than what higher wage earners pay through their jobs.
But there are some who won't even pay those smaller premiums, they want free coverage!
There are a few that "fall through the cracks" and can't acquire these subsidized policies, but mostly, many of those without insurance choose to be without it!
Apparently you have not
Apparently you have not applied for any of the programs of which you speak. I wish what you are saying were true. If it were true I would not be taking part in this conversation. There would be no need to.
If you are not a child, are pregnant or have AIDS you will have an extremely hard time obtaining insurance or getting any assistance with insurance premiums through state or federal programs. You must meet one of those conditions listed above plus be qualified by doing a "spend down" to prove you meet certain financial criteria (aka poverty).
That statement is so ridiculous that it shows how uninformed you really are about obtaining health care insurance. If insurance is as easy to obtain as you say, please post instructions on how to go about getting it. There are millions of people without insurance who would like to know.
You speak about "spend down"
You speak about "spend down" or poverty as a condition for subsidized insurance. Well, isn't that what its for... those who don't have enough or make enough to afford regular policies. Subsidized insurance is for those who need it but cannot afford regular insurance, not for those who just don't want to spend their own money for it!
There are thousands of
There are thousands of people here in Tennessee that can't meet the requirements to get subsidized insurance due to having a minimum wage job that puts them over the limit on income. They cannot afford to pay $400-$800 a month for insurance on their families and still feed their families. When they ask for assistance they get turned away. It has been said in this thread that one of the reasons for being against a national health care plan is because of loosing the right to choose. Those people who must choose to feed their family or pay for health care insurance for their family find it to be a hard choice to make. They are the people who would be helped by a national health care program.
The people who are more fortunate and able to pay, and the people who have little, can have health insurance. Why not help the men and women who work hard every day, but can not find the good paying jobs, have insurance too? Do they not deserve insurance?
I see no use for me to comment further on this subject as we are only going in circles and will always disagree. I appear to be the minority here when it comes to being willing to sacrifice a little to help my fellow man who is financially unable to help himself.
Why do we assume
Why do we assume that people with resources are simply more fortunate?
Luck or good fortune is not the reason why people succeed and it is not why people fail.
No one is against helping people who cannot do for themseleves.
But this notion that everyone has the right to what everyone else has is wrong. Life is not fair and government will never make it so.
I'm not a liberal
And my chosen party can do better than the governor of Alaska next time round.
I look forward to what Obama
ConcernedCitizen.............We have not hit rock bottom,but it is quickly on it's way! I do not vote party,I vote person but I will tell you this,we may have been on the downward cycle before but now we are on the
Obama train!
Biggest problem; The Obama train is moving like a SUPER SPEED JET!!
I think we agree on at least
I think we agree on at least one thing: "The Obama train is moving like a SUPER SPEED JET!!" We just disagree on the direction the train is going. :)
DPA and RON You guys know as
DPA and RON
You guys know as well as I do that you cant argue with a liberal. It is not worth the slight elevation it causes in blood pressure/stress to let those type of thinkers cause you.
WLE1 and DPA: I couldn't
WLE1 and DPA:
I couldn't agree more.
You can't argue with a liberal?????
What about a little straight dialog and discussion without the insults? The guy who pays the bills for this site set it up as a place for liberals/progressives to discuss issues of interest. He has every right to ban anyone he chooses. It has evolved into an excellent source of information and great place for a little mental excercise. If your beliefs are iron clad and your mind is closed, why do you bother to enter into moronic diatribes. One should understand that because a given site appears on the internet, it does NOT become public property that entitles you to unconditional access or the right to act like a jerk. There are lots of places on the internet where you can find like minded people who won't raise your blood pressure.
BrantWW, DPA, and others; I
BrantWW, DPA, and others;
I got in the office this morning and started reading this thread. Every time I read a post and thought I'm going to reply to that, you guys had already posted exactly what I was thinking.
Thank You and keep up the good work.
Here's an interesting article..
An economist's perspective on health care.
(link...)